Feature Articles

R&B Dialogues: Part One

Edited by Jem Aswad. Special thanks to
Dana Graham Newman and Dana Bennett
for their assistance.

As part of Black Music History Month and the "LA Music Week '99" celebration, ASCAP presented the following fascinating discussion panel at the Guitar Center in Hollywood, California on June 24th, 1999. The panel addresses many different issues, and it's essential reading for up-and-coming songwriters, performers, and executives looking to get ahead in the music business. Although it deals mostly with R&B, the vast experience of the panelists -- a film composer, a music publisher, two songwriters, a manager/songwriter, and an ASCAP Film/Television/R&B representative -- provides loads of good advice for virtually everyone interested in the music business.

The Conversation begins...

Jeanie Weems: How did you all get started and who influenced you?

Big Jon Platt: I'm originally from Denver. I was a DJ, I worked in clubs and when I met artists, I'd ask them about the business, and I was surprised that they didn't know a lot of the answers. So as the DJ thing got old, I started reading books on the business like Donald Passman's All You Need To Know About the Music Business and Nelson George's The Death of Rhythm & Blues, and I knew that I wanted to get behind the scenes. So I moved to L.A., started managing producers, got them some work, and ended up getting one of them a publishing deal with EMI, which is how my relationship with the company developed. In '95, when the guy who signed my producers moved on to an A&R job at Warner Bros., EMI offered me his old job. As far as who influenced me, I'd have to say Russell Simmons and Berry Gordy. I was already managing when Berry's book [ To Be Loved ] came out, but when I read it and saw that he had gone through a lot of the things I had gone through, I knew I was on the right path.

Tamara Savage: I just got out of college last year. I've always loved music. One of my friends introduced me to Ray Brown, who is now my manager, and he was looking for someone to demo songs for producers. Then I started demoing my voice onto their songs, and I guess they liked it. [Tamara wins this panel's modesty award! -- ed.]

Stan Sheppard: My family started the first black music label in America, VeeJay Records. I came up as a record industry brat, and I had the fortune to meet people who went on to become the power brokers of this industry. What I do right now is quietly work behind the scenes in a variety of ways to get things done, not only in the record industry but on the streets. There's not a facet of this industry that I haven't witnessed first-hand, and no one can lie to me because the people I came up with made the rules. So what I do right now is advise young black people and artists coming into this business how not to get fooled.

Rory Bennett: I guess you could say my career started with this gentleman to my right, Marcus Miller. Just from being a fan, emulating every record that he played on, every person he wrote or produced for, trying to shape what I do now. Learning how to write and produce songs came to me through his evolution -- as a bassist, keyboardist, sideman, producer, then movie composer. I kinda owe my whole musical life to this guy here!

Marcus Miller: Wow, that's really nice! Damn! Now I don't know what to say! Um, I come from a musical family, I actually had a cousin, [jazz pianist] Wynton Kelly, who was signed to VeeJay Records, and Foxy Brown is from that side of the family also, so it's pretty natural for me to be in music. I grew up in New York and played bass guitar with the Jamaica Funk Crew, Tom Brown and others, and in 1979 I got an audition for the Saturday Night Live house band -- the band that plays right before they go to commercials. In that band I met a lot of different musicians: David Sanborn, who I ended up writing music for and being in his band, Luther Vandross, and a lot of other people.

I ended up getting into the studio scene in New York, which, as a bass player, you just play for whoever needs a bass player: you walk in the studio, they slap the music in front of you, you play it, you sign your little slip to get paid, and you go to the next gig. It was like that for ten years, just walkin' up and down Broadway, playing on different peoples' records. Sometimes I didn't even know who the artist was, I just saw the notes and played 'em and kept going. It was a beautiful way to get an education -- working with so many different people, I got to see how a lot of different people made music. I worked with Robert Flack, Paul Simon, Elton John, Bob Marley's crew, everyone you could imagine, and everybody had their own way of making music. Some people needed to get blunted up [laughs], some people needed to say their prayers -- there's so much you can learn from being a studio musician. I just tried to absorb all of the information I could get.

Eventually I joined Miles Davis' band, and you can imagine how much I learned from him. But it's all been a growing experience, and now to turn around and see [gestures to Rory] -- I didn't realize anybody was watching what I was doing, I was too busy looking ahead. I didn't realize these brothers were behind me, checkin' out what I did and being influenced by it. It's a beautiful thing -- you can see how influences just get passed down.

Jeanie Weems: So how does a songwriter get on? How did you get that first song? Not that hit song -- that first song. What did it take for you to get with that artist? Tamara? How did the Monica single come about?

Tamara Savage: [laughing] Uh, well, see, I was on a date -- [laughter] -- with this one dude and he was nice, spendin' a little money or whatever, and he leans over and he's lookin' at me like "You gonna kiss me?" Y'know, 'cause he just took me out to dinner, taught me how to bowl, and I'm lookin' at him like "I'm not kissin' you!" So after that I had to go to Atlanta and work with Jermaine, so we get in the studio and Jermaine said "What are we gonna write about?" And that's where "I don't get down on the first night" came from. And I wrote the whole scene out -- everything in that song was real! [applause]

Jeanie Weems: Rory? How did you meet K-Ci and Jo Jo?

Rory Bennett: Actually, it was due to a young gentleman that's in the audience. Damon Jones at the time was managing CeCe Peniston, who I played keyboards and programmed for, and we were starting her third solo album and he was looking for somebody to sing a duet with her. And at the time K-CI was hittin' with "If You Think You're Lonely Now" from the Jason's Lyric soundtrack, so he was sizing K-CI up for the duet. I said, "Don't sleep on Jo Jo -- - a lotta people pay attention to K-CI, but Jo Jo's quiet and he's got that nice high voice." So I guess he thought about it, 'cause he got in touch with Jodeci, struck up a relationship with Jo Jo, started managing him, and at that time Jo Jo was working on a song for Daryl Hall, but he wanted more of a pop influence rather than R&B. So he put the two of us together, and the first night we wrote together was just magic and we've been writing ever since. When you meet somebody that you get that vibe with -- I know Marcus knows what I'm talking about [from his work] with Luther. And from that, two songs on their first album came about, three songs on this record, we've just got a great vibe together.

Jeanie Weems: This is something I ask writers a lot when the come into my office. What did it feel like when you had that first hit, and was it helpful to your career in terms of securing other assignments?

Stan Sheppard: I had a couple of #1 records as a writer/producer, and one was a song called "Slow Motion" by Gerald Allston. At the time I was writing it I thought, "Would I go out and buy this?" And I thought, "Yeah, it sounds good." You go from phase one: it gets played on the radio locally and you trip out. Then you see it in print, and you trip out again and call all your buddies. And if you've sold 500 records or 300,000, you start hypin' yourself because, guess what? You're in show business! [laughter] There's no bigger joy than seeing your record #1, and when you get it, you can ride it for two years, even if you have nothing but flops. And that's real, even if you go into a cold funk, you can still clock offa' one hit.

Big Jon Platt: I handle songwriters all day, so [I know how it feels]. The first smash record I had was [TLC's] "Waterfalls." I had started at EMI in March of '95, and the TLC album had just come out. "Waterfalls" wasn't a single yet, but I met the kid who wrote it, Marqueze Etheridge. I had been looking for a lyric and melody writer in the worst way, and someone had told me about him, "Oh yeah, he's got this little song on the TLC album," and it was my favorite song on the album because it reminded me of Sly & the Family Stone. I had to chase him all around Atlanta, but I finally met him and we ended up doing just a one-song deal, because he wasn't ready to do a full publishing deal.

So that was my first hit, but to me it didn't really count because I wasn't with it from birth, from beginning to end. The first one of those I had was Tamara's "The First Night." I can remember when it went #1 R&B -- I was callin' Lionel at the record company every week: "Lionel -- where is it at? Where is it gonna be next week?" He called me at 7:30 in the morning and I said "You must have good news callin' me this early!" He said, "Tell Tamara and Jermaine they've got a #1 record!"

But when it went #1 pop? I mean, so few people get to that top left corner of the charts -- that's when you know you've done something. And it was by a writer that I signed who had no songs coming out, I put her with Jermaine, I was in Atlanta when they wrote the song, I can even remember the night -- which just shows you how the creative thing comes about. She had gone to Atlanta to write a song with Jermaine that hopefully was gonna be for Janet Jackson for the South Park soundtrack. So me, Jermaine, LA Reid and Lionel were all at dinner, and Lionel had been saying "We need a song for Monica!" And Jermaine said, "What song should we do tonight? Janet Jackson and them might be bull and I ain't got time to be re-demoing no song five times!" [laughter] So I said "Do the Monica record!" They went home, he threw the loop on -- he hadn't even done much to the track -- and Tamara went in. I went in maybe 45 minutes later and she already had the hook. I knew it was a smash -- that was the best feeling I'd had so far. That was the first good feeling -- I've had a lot since then! [laughter]

Jeanie Weems: Big Jon, let me ask you as a music publisher, having had that kind of success, having had that #1 single, was your phone ringing off the hook with people wanting to get down with Tamara?

Big Jon Platt: When I sign you, you're a #1 writer to me already, so that's the way I present you -- like you've already got #1 records. If I don't believe it and you don't believe it, how are we gonna get everybody else to believe it? Tamara had no records out and nothing coming out, and I had her with Jermaine Dupri, Teddy Riley, and Soulshock & Karlin. These are all people who write hit records, but I just approach them like "She's got the goods!" And needless to say, when she steps up to the plate, she hits the home runs. I always tell her, "I'll get you the bat, you just swing it!" And she gets the hits. With her getting a #1 record, of course the phone starts ringing, but she had a lot of work before. All of those records that have already come out and done well were the initial stage -- ya'll haven't even heard the second wave of records that are about to come out! It don't stop, and it's like that with all of my writers. I don't really get caught up in the hype -- I'm a businessperson, so I can't get caught up in it!

Jeanie Weems: Tamara, as a female, and being so young, have you experienced any age-ism or sexism as a songwriter?

Tamara Savage: No, not really. I've hung around guys all my life, and I think I adapt better with guys, so I haven't really experienced any of it. I mean, they do look when you come into the studio, like "What's she gonna come up with?" And then I hit 'em, and they're like, "Okay, okay, I'm feelin' it!" It's cool.

Jeanie Weems: I'm very pleased to hear that. I'd like to switch reels for a minute and specifically talk to Marcus. I'm sure a lot of you know Marcus for his jazz and R&B work, but I asked him to speak on this panel because he's made a segue from one world to another that is often very difficult to do -- and that is into the world of film music composition. I would like Marcus to tell us about some of the challenges he may have faced in moving into that world, and if those challenges still exist.

Marcus Miller: In film music, I do the underscore, so when somebody's about to get killed in the movie, I'm the one who does the [hums ominously] "MMMMMMMM....SOMEBODY'S ABOUT TO GET KILLED....MMMMM.... WATCH OUT -- LOOK BEHIND YOU!" [laughter], that kinda stuff. But the hardest part about it is, when you're doing a [non-film] record, if you feel it, then you're gonna put it out. You might have to play it for your A&R guy, but there's not too many people that have to approve it. When you're doing films, you've gotta play the music for the director, the producer, the film company -- there are so many levels of people who don't know nothin' about music who have to approve what you're doing. So that makes it a little difficult: you end up doing six or seven drafts of music, and you know the first one was the bomb, but they just didn't get it. So you have to put your whole emotional side to bed for a minute until you can figure out what it is they want -- that's the hardest thing.

And then it's about trying to find colors in your music that bring out peoples' emotions. If you're doing an R&B song, usually you're talking about love or dancing or something basic like that, but in a movie, you might be making someone feel anxious, making someone feel scared, and you've gotta find those colors in the music. So you've got to work with harmony, you've got to work with orchestration, so those are some big differences. But at the end you still have to make people feel something, and that's what you've got to do with any record, so it's not really all that different.

Jeanie Weems: On the other side, have you encountered any stereotypes because you come from that world? Do directors say, "Oh, you're a jazz guy"?

Marcus Miller: Well, the first thing they say is, "Oh, he's a black guy?" [laughter] Then they say, "Oh, he's a black jazz guy?" I remember once I had to do an orchestra session -- and I majored in orchestration in college. So I wrote out the parts and I showed up at the date at the Sony soundstage. I had like 75 musicians, and they were all kinda older, they play in the L.A. Symphony but moonlight as session musicians. I had forgotten to dress properly, and I walked in with my jeans and my hat on, and they were like, "Okay, who is homeboy?" [laughter] But for me, the important part of the word "prejudice" is the "pre-": that's what people think before anything goes down. And I don't mind people thinking I'm probably going to be a certain way, as long as they give me a shot. So when I hold up that baton and go [tap-tap-tap] and then tell the cellos that they're behind the beat and the violins are out of tune, and all of the sudden their backs straighten up like "Okay!" -- then I don't care what they thought about me when I walked in the door.

And that's not just music: that's life. If somebody sees you dressed a certain way, they watch TV, they assume you're like the guy they saw on TV, especially if they don't know anybody like you. The important thing is if they'll give you a shot, and if they do, you've gotta come through -- you've gotta dispel all the preconceptions and prejudice, and that might be a little difficult. If you don't come through, you don't have anybody to blame but yourself. But if you do, then you flip it on them, because they don't expect you to be good, and when you are, all of the sudden you're their favorite! All the cello players are comin' up to me after the session, "You were excellent, MAN!" [laughter] Y'know what I mean? So just be ready, and when your shot comes, hit it out of the park.

Jeanie Weems: Okay, what project have you worked on that you are most proud of, and why . . . Rory?

Rory Bennett: That took me back to high school -- "Hope she don't pick me!" [laughter] I'd have to say the song I did with K-CI and Jo Jo for the Prince of Egypt soundtrack was the most challenging. Because the song was taken from the part of the movie where Moses meets his wife, and the song is called "Through Heaven's Eyes," and it was kind of a chant with a real crazy time [signature], like 14/96 or something crazy like that. And they gave me the assignment to kinda flip it into a regular pop song, and the way it was structured it had maybe six verses and half a hook and was in 14/96 time -- and they asked me to make it into a pop song! But I got a chance to work with a 40-piece orchestra, which I like doing now. Marcus wasn't in town that day -- I wanted to work with him! -- but I got the chance to work with [top-rated bassist] Nathan East and [top-rated guitarist] Steve Lukather. It was hard but we got it done, and we just amended some of the lyrics and the vocals and it came out really nice, I'm really proud of it. And it all started because K-CI and Jo Jo didn't like the song! [laughter] And at the end of the day they loved it.

Stan Sheppard: I would probably say it was when I was heading the Jackson family organization. I grew up with them back in Chicago, we played shows together. I moved here and I was working at Motown and Mrs. Jackson asked me to come and work with the family. Then the fiasco with Michael hit, and Mrs. Jackson called me out to her house, and she was surrounded by‚ people who had come from political backgrounds, consultants and people like that. I really didn't care too much for those people, so I was able to speak my mind. And she was facing literally hundreds of photographers and TV cameras in front of her home, and my job was to decide who got the first interview where the family would respond to this issue. So almost the entire Jackson family was in this room and she asked me what to do, and you know how they say you have your 15 minutes of fame? Everybody in the room looked at me, and I said, "You're a strong lady, you have a remarkable rapport with America. Forget everything political, just go out there and speak as a mom about your son." She did that, and I got six people fired that night -- and I'm proud of it! -- and we did what we had to do.

Tamara Savage: Mine would have to be "Take Me There," because that was my first crossover song that anybody heard. It was a challenge because it was the first single for the Rugrats soundtrack, and being able to work with Teddy Riley and Blackstreet? Whew! I was so happy.

Big Jon Platt: I've got a couple. I don't write songs but I develop songwriters. So seeing the success of Warryn Campbell, Tamara Savage, and my new guy who's developing now, Walter Milsap, is the most gratifying thing for me, because the publishing game in general is really like a game of chasing the charts: wait till the next songwriter hits the charts, and then go get 'em. I like being on the cutting edge, so I just said, "What about the people who nobody knows about yet?" And through the presence of God I met some hungry young talent who really wanted to work hard.

That's another thing with me: you could be hot as I don't know what, but if you're not ready to work hard, I can't really get with you, because I work hard, and you've definitely gotta work as hard as I work for you. To see that success and to be able to change and enhance peoples' lives, that's a big thing for me, and this year I won Music Publisher of the Year at the Impact Conference [applause], so that means a lot. Breaking a new writer is a lotta grunt work, and a lot of "no"'s. I always tell people, if you're not ready to hear "no," this is the wrong business for you to be in, because you're gonna hear it quite a bit.

Marcus Miller: I was in Roberta Flack's band, and Luther Vandross was a backing singer. And he was the first singer I had ever met who was serious about singing like musicians are serious about their instruments. He used to study singers and he'd tell you how one used vibrato differently from the others, he was really serious about what he did, and we'd talk a lot.

He asked me to play on his demo, and he could only get studio time on Sunday morning at like 7:30, so we're in there trying to keep our eyes open playing those tracks. And he took those demos all over town and, like Big Jon just said, everybody said no. What was big then was Cameo and Lakeside and all those big R&B bands with all the clothes and colors. The record companies said "What do you do?" and Luther said "I stand up there and I sing." "Well, we can't use you." And I watched Luther go from door to door -- and I'm not lyin', because today you can't imagine anybody hearing Luther's voice and saying, "I'm not feelin' it." Finally he got one guy to give him a little piece of a contract -- it was bordering on criminal, that first contract he signed -- but that was all he could get, because the only other people who offered him a deal wanted somebody else to produce him, but he said "I want to produce myself, I have a sound in my head."

So he took that little contract, he used those little demos, fixed them up, and they ended up being his first album, "Never Too Much" -- and it went platinum! And all those record company people who were supposed to be the experts, you finally realize: they don't know nuthin', man! They don't know until it happens, just like you! So you've gotta stay with what you feel. I learned so much from him about just believing in yourself and taking a chance, and "If you don't like it someone else will, but I'm not gonna change." I saw that brother go from being a backup singer in Roberta's band, and a year later he couldn't walk down the street without girls fainting and going crazy.

There was another one. I was in Miles Davis' band, and I left after awhile and I started writing music, and I came back to Miles a little later with a song for him. To make a long story short, the song ended up bringing him back to popularity after he had been kinda off for awhile. It was called "Tutu" [applause], it went gold in a lot of different places. It was a good record, it wasn't anything like the classic records he did in the '50s, but he said to me after the record had been out for awhile, "Man, you brought me back, and I just want to thank you." And if anybody here knew Miles, for him to say something like that to you -- you need to sample it and play it once a day, because he didn't really come at you like that. But I knew he really felt it, so that was an important thing for me.

Photos: Serrina Sims

Part 2

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